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Selective Tolerance in Poland, or How Leftist Ideals Turned Out to be 'More Equal' Than Others

A story from Poland available [url=http://www.koliber.net/index/index.php?action=show&object=article&id=265… on how a conservative group protesting against the discrimination against men, against the unborn, against the wealthy (through high taxes) and against people with traditional Christian views on morality was [b]banned[/b] from a declaredly pro-tolerance, pro-equality, pro-democracy and pro-freedom “Equality March”.

The march was organized by a cluster of liberal, feminist and homosexual groups and was effectively a gay-pride march under the cover of an “equality” event and pretending to be fighting for equal rights for people of ALL views.

How typical.

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What a blessing is the internet, thanks to which we can come together so easily, across oceans and continents, with faraway people who agree regarding the necessity of respect for normalness over degeneratenss; for truth over lies; for meaning over meaninglessness; for faith in God over false worship of the bottomless void.
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“If a tree falls and an expert doesn’t hear it, is there a sound?” Yes, the sweetest, most melodious sound in all creation: the sound of entropy being brought clanking, screeching, grinding to a halt.

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Thank you for that comment. You made my day.

You don’t even realize what it means to us to be able to share our story with like-minded people out there. And to be noticed, and understood.

Indeed, thank God for the Web! You said it all in just the right words.

It is scary how the liberal, feminist and homosexual propaganda is creeping into our country, so far more or less preserved from such influences.

The liberals are using precisely the same manipulation techniques as they did some years ago in the U.S. and then in Europe. Desensitizing + the ‘big lie’ technique + victimology, the classic recipe for brainwashing societies. Only hardly anyone here knows how to cope with this.

We have a hard fight still ahead of us.

… as someone from a country that was until fairly recently Communist, do you find liberal brainwashing and manipulation techniques fairly similar or somewhat dissimilar, to the sort of techniques the Communists used during their rule?

Just wondering. I have no experience of Communism on which to judge, but I’ve always felt that Nazism, Communism, and liberalism are related closely, despite their differences; all offspring of the Enlightenment… I have thus observed, with some wonder, at how our civilization faced and dealt with the Nazi and Communist threats, yet has seemed to, at least for now, buckle under to the liberal threat…

Take your time in answering us American ignoramuses; we have no idea how Poland suffered under You Know Who and Communism. So we are curious but probably tedious. Our gory Civil War, the goriest to date, was over 144 years ago. But we traditionalist Rebels and latter-day Yankee traditionalists are very much united today. (If I may brag, we Rebels are a pretty tough crowd; who do you think made and makes up a high percentage of the U.S. Armed Forces?)

Have at me. I am used to it, being a traditionalist.

“Take your time in answering us American ignoramuses”

You, Americans, are no ignoramuses. You are very far from that, in fact. The myth of enlightened sophisticates of Europe is just this, a myth, created and kept alive by some frustrated European intellectuals who just can’t get over having lost their dominance over the world to America.

My impression is that you have a much more practical attitude to life that Europeans. No wonder. It was, after all, the fittest who came to America. You are much more effective in whatever you do.

It’s enough to have a quick look around this forum. The level of discussion here, as well as in many other American forums, is truly humbling. You don’t just fool around and waste your time exchanging useless comments or chatting with no real purpose. Your discussions are always clearly structured, logical, coherent and to the point. You take a position and argue accordingly. Arguments lead to conclusions.

You have a lot to teach the rest of the world in that matter. Which, by the way, is one of the reasons why I just love hanging around places like Turnabout. Thanks, everyone, for contributing here.

Do I find liberal brainwashing and manipulation techniques similar to techniques used by the Communists during their rule?

Oh yes, very much so.

I remember once or twice sending some American liberal media an ironic congratulatory note, telling them that, as a Pole, I was so very much impressed at how masterfully they distorted the meaning of something, or handled a subject with top-notch manipulative skill that rivals that of our Communist experts.

The things they do are all rooted in the same old principles. Sometimes it’s almost like a deja vu. Often times you just go like ‘Yeah, right, I’ve seen it before.’

Only now it’s not coming from within our country, but from the western world, a world which we have learned to instinctively trust, accept and imitate without questioning. You see, the years of hating our own government and our own Communist reality made us develop this kind of unquestioning attitude to anything ‘western’.

The result now is that we are blind to the tricks the liberals are playing on us, even though we should be able to see through them, considering our not so distant past experience with the Communists.

Another thing is that the liberals are targetting young people, who very often have a somewhat ignorant attitude towards history and the experience of elder generations. Or simply, for them, the stories from the past are just this, stories. They don’t know it from their own experience and their parents are not always willing to share painful memories.

For the younger generations it’s OK to laugh at the past reality, but who would take it as a serious precaution for the future? The communist reality seems so absurd that no one even suspects things like that could ever happen again. That’s precisely why it is dangerous.

My pessimistic feeling is that now we are closer to the Orwellian world of 1984 than we have ever been before. Precisely because people uderestimate the liberal danger.

And us Poles, as a nation, we forgot very quickly the lessons we should have learned from the Communist rule.

Joanna shows unbelievable English usage by a non-native speaker. Joanna clearly has a high intellect. I hope she continues to contribute here, although she surely has many similar requests. But let me sell her with a reference to Mr. Jim Kalb, our host. She will not find a brighter (or kinder) man anywhere on the Net; she will be unable to better him in an argument. So if she ever needs advice in her battles with our liberal opponents, I am gratified she can find it here. Mr. Kalb is not only an experienced attorney at law but also a writer and mathematician. You tread carefully around Mr. Kalb.

Mr. Henri, you are being very kind to me. As I have already said many times, it is a privilege for me to be here. I will gladly contribute whenever I can, but most of all, I will continue to read and learn, as there is an abundance of valuable content here. I will also bear in mind that Mr.Kalb is the person to look up to with special attention. Thank you again.

Oh Joanna fear not. There are many like-minded people in this world; for example, look at our Catholic Church, a mighty power. I wish we had a secular association that could tie us together; the Net seems to be the current knot. But we need to be more closely knit; we need a social association in which we and our families can get together regularly regardless of nationality. Our Church leadership, not our Church, is perhaps too political and corrupt at present (not including the Pope of course). But we know this is only temporary because the Church is pure.

Of course Poland is not trying to conquer the U.S. as Mexico is. So I don’t think we need to include Mexicans in the association.

Have at me; I am used to it as I am a traditionalist. (I am humbled by your English.) E-mail me anytime.

“There are many like-minded people in this world; for example, look at our Catholic Church, a mighty power.”

How very true. Wherever I go, whatever I do, whoever I meet, as long as I am within the reach of a Catholic church, I know I am Home. Simplistic as it may sound, we are one huge family and a mighty power, like you said, across boundaries. Are you seriously thinking of creating an international secular association? Why do you not want to include Mexicans?

… as a Pole, living close to the Ukraine, what do you think about the events transpiring there - what does it all mean? I read that Poland’s President Aleksander Kwasniewski was travelling to the Ukraine to mediate in the crisis there… I also read that Lech Walesa has visited Kiev and given his two cents’ worth…

Dear All,

Last time I was here I said I would be back “tomorrow at the latest” and that was 4 days ago. Apologies for the delay. I have no excuse other than that these past days have been really hectic and at the end of the day I was just drained and unable to think logically, leave alone write a coherent comment.

Once again you surprise me with your hospitality. Let me reiterate that it is MY honor and pleasure to be here. I am delighted to be of any use to you.

Coming back to your questions:

Ukraine is a tricky subject.

On one hand, the general mood prevailing here, in Poland, and I guess in the rest of Europe as well, seems to be one of solidarity and support for the Ukrainian opposition. Almost all the media, politicians from all over the political scene, as well as all kinds of celebrities suddenly unanimously stand up for one cause. The opposition candidate is elevated to the status of a national hero, compared to Lech Walesa of Poland, and it is kind of taken for granted that the ‘orange revoultion’, if successful, will bring change for the better.

However,

personally, I would be careful not to take the events in the Ukraine at face value.

Here is why:

First of all, we have to bear in mind that whatever we know about Yushchenko and the ‘orange revolution’ is filtered through the media. Even from my local European perspective, it is still only this fraction of the whole issue that they want us to see.

Second, what do we really know about Victor Yushchenko other than that he identifies himself as the opposition candidate? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to downplay his role or accuse him of anything unfair. I am just wondering.

Next, how do we account for the almost unaniomous support Yushchenko receives from all over the civilized world? Governments, politicians, the media, the EU… I have my opinions on the EU and I learned to be extremely cautious about things that THEY support.

Yushchenko is openly pro-EU. But how do we know close relations with the EU will turn out to be a good thing for the Ukraine itself? Personally, I doubt so.

And then, mentaliy. My way of looking at things is obviously different from yours, because I see these events from a Polish perspective. And that means years of close contact with the post-Soviet mentality. I think mentality is key to the whole question. Can you really trust whatever the politicians claim to be or do? You can’t. This may sound a bit harsh and unpatriotic, but there’s really very little, not to say, no notion of honor and responsibility for your own words and deeds in this part of the world. I suppose you’d have to be here to fully grasp what I mean.

Another thing is that according to some people, both candidates are leftist or communist. One is openly pro-Russia, the other just pro-EU. They even say the pro-Russia one is less socialist and much more open to the free market economy. Moreover, Yushchenko is said to have no viable political program, apart from his democracy mantra.

One more thing: historic evidence shows these kinds of uprisings don’t always turn out right in the end. Remember Romania some 15 years ago? What was applauded in the media as the turning point in Romanian history turned out to be just a re-shuffle within the same group holding power over the country. At the time it was happening, however, you were supposed to accept it as an undeniable change for the better.

At that time, only one person on the Polish political scene was not overly enthusiastic and had the courage to publicly voice his doubts. That was Janusz Korwin - Mikke of the Real Politics Union (Unia Polityki Realnej). And history proved him right. Janusz Korwin - Mikke was skeptical then and he is skeptical now. So are other notable Polish conservative politicians and writers that I value. So am I.

Same people who are for Yushchenko were for John Kerry. Dan Rather almost cried he was so touched by the demostrations. I’m aware Soros had supported Kuchma but he and Sorosite NGOS seem to be firmly on Yushchenko’s side now. Looks to me as if the New Y ork Times and others want the oligarchs back in control.

My cyncial conspiratorial side believes it is all about money and a return to power for a very small group. Those who plundered Russia in the 1990s were trying for a double. Elect Kerry and Yushc h enko. Get a new DOJ and Treasury in the USA which would ignore the laundering of billions through the Bank of New York as the agencies did in the 1990s. Use the Ukraine as a staging ground to take down Putin and allow Soros, Berezovsky, Gusinsky, Khod o rkovsky and others to return to power in Russia.

Charles Schumer, the man Kerry vowed to appoint to the Supreme Court, has been actively trying to get Bush to strong arm Putin to release Khodorkovsky from prison. Schumer was at the opening of the first Yukos gas station in the USA. He also, along with the AJCongress, fought opening ANWR to drilling in favor of more imports from Yukos. In fact, Schumer and the AJCongress fought he development of all American energy production (the Roan Plateau NG development for instance) in favor of Russian imports.

There are 20 trillion cubic feet of NG under the Roan. It is the Persian Gulf of natural gas. Schumer preferred we buy LNG shipped from Murmansk than drill barren land in Colorado..ˇ

Mr. Scrooby gives thanks where it is deserved, as usual. He knows truth exists even though he has no idea what a phony idea like absolute truth is.

Before I proceed to answering your questions, which I will gladly do in a minute, let me say how very flattered I am by the response and interest I am getting from you. I will now read your comments with care and address the issues raised one at a time.

The article mentions the march was sponsored by “left-wing political parties and like-minded NGOs.”

Do you know, Joanna, what NGOs were involved and who funds them? Are they Polish? If not, how do Poles react to such involvement in domestic affairs?

A re the NGOs merely “like-minded” or are they more? Do they, in fact, create and fund the left wing parties?ã–

Thanks again for your interest! I meant to reply to all comments, but I am afraid I won’t make it today. I really have to go now, but promise to get back to you on Ukraine, NGOs and the rest tomorrow at the latest. Really sorry.

Take your time; we, too, all have work, and our daily lives, too… We’re glad to have you participating, helping enlighten us, and gain a different perspective than we might otherwise have on various matters. That is indeed the beauty of the internet; here at Turnabout we have regular participants from the United States, Canada, Australia, Venezuela, and elsewhere; and now, Poland. Welcome!

The march was sponsored and organized by LAMBDA Gay and Lesbian Association (which, as far as I am informed, is a Polish branch of something international), a femnist women’s association by the name of KONSOLA, the Green Party and the New Left Party.

I have not investigated their mutual affiliations, nor do I know who funds them. I have no idea whether they are funded from abroad, I can only suspect so.

As to your question, how do Poles react to the foreign involvement in their domestic affairs (should there really be such involvement), I can only say that the majority just couldn’t care less.

Poles are kind of used to ignoring the public sphere of life. This has multiple reasons, one of them being the feeling that all effort ends nowhere, you cannot change anything, however hard you try, the power is always in the hands of a few who control the rest and that is never going to change. Corruption of the elites breeds the feeling of helplessness and hopelessness among the citizens.

The Polish style of coping with the feeling of disappointment is: complain about it to your neighbor. Sit together, sip coffee, exchange sighs of disagreement and protest, tell him how you feel your rights are being abused, and you will feel better. Do you know what I mean? No action, just moaning and groaning.

Overall, the answer to your question is: Poles don’t react at all. Generally, they either don’t know (like myself) or don’t care. The tiny amount of people who can be somehow upset about foreign involvement in our domestic affairs, won’t do anything about it for some time to come, I can pessimistically guarantee you that.

Apologies to my fellow citizens for that catastrophic vision and my rough description of our Polish mentality.

I am certainly familiar with this, Joanna. Moved to Prague in the early 1990s and the feeling was suffocating. I can be cynical at times but never have I reached the depths of Czech Republic cynicism. Only was able to visit Poland (Wroclaw) for a short time but didn’t see any despair for the future there. Poles, who at that time were far less well off than the Czechs, seemed much happier. Of course I only had a superficial view but I attributed the difference to Poles retaining the Church under communism while the Czechs drifted off into agnosticism and atheism. Poles had an ideal beyond the chess club and music to sustain them…¸

Muhlenberg: You are probably right about the Polish - Czech difference. I don’t know the Czechs that well, but it’s not the first time I have heard an opinion like yours.

Just after the fall of Communism, in the early 1990s, we were VERY enthusiastic compared to now. I was but a kid then (born 1982) but I remember very distinctly the gray reality of the past turning into a better world right before my very eyes. For a very short while free enterprise flourished, people became richer and happier. New horizons opened. We had a new democratic government, whom we trusted. Naturally, we were full of hope for a better future.

Come and visit Poland now. Talk to people. The enthusiasm of the early 1990s is dead and gone. What you will find here is this ubiquitous feeling of disappointment, hopelessness and yes, despair. No future for the young. Distrust for the government. Corruption on all levels of the beaurocratic machine…

Oh, my. Here I am complaining about my country again… see? I am part of this mood.

Thanks, Andre, I should have provided the links myself.

Some info on the NGOs involved in the organization of the ‘equality march’ in Poznan, Poland on Nov 20, 2004 (their webpages): http://free.art.pl/konsola/english.htm the feminist KONSOLA, http://www.lambda.org LGBT LAMBDA intl and http://www.lambda.org.pl/pro/english.php3 LAMBDA Poland.